LOGAN: Welcome to the Logan Bartlett Show. I am yourhost, Logan Bartlett. What you're gonna hear on this episode is a conversationI have with Ryan Smith. Ryan is the owner of the Utah Jazz, as well as thefounder and former CEO of Qualtrics, which sold to SAP for $8 billion, thenwent public and then sold again most recently to Silverlake for $12 billion.
Ryan and I discussed abunch of different things, including what it's like to own his hometown team inthe jazz. How that came to be, the sale process of buying into the NBA as wellas the early days of Qualtrics. We go into Ryan's background, which involvedhim dropping out of high school, ending up in South Korea without knowing asingle person in the country and without a job, as well as how his life was turnedaround.
And ultimately he foundhis way to founding Qualtrics with both his dad and [00:01:00] brother. Here's my conversation with RyanSmith.
LOGAN: All right, Ryan, thanks for doing this. Okay,so I wanna take you back to 2017. You're asked a question in an interview. Idon't know if you've ever been held to account for this. You don't know whereI'm going You're asked, in the interview, you said that you picked Russell Westbrook over Kevin Durant to start a Do you think at that moment theNBA owners were like, okay, good, we'll let this guy in. This is, this is it. Isaid, oh yeah, a hundred percent. it 2017?
RYAN: I picked Russell Westbrook.
LOGAN: Yeah. I think it was during his, his MVP uh,run in all of that. This kind of research you get from me.
RYAN: Yeah, I like it. It was so, first of all, I, Idon't know, a lot changes. Uh, but, you know, I think then it was probably, it’s probably just onean MVP award up but, but what's [00:02:00]crystal clear is you need both of them plus one more to win a championship.
LOGAN: That's certainly true So wait I wanna I wannaask about so buying the buying the jazz so you're the governor now which Istill haven't adjusted to Have you gotten natural in saying governor?
RYAN: I don't say anything. I don't. I don't. Idon't. I that's everyone else's title.
LOGAN: That's what other people say about it Yeah Sothe process of buying into the like when did this actually start to besomething that you were thinking about Like this could be a real thing I assumeat some point kids like wanna play and then they're like I'm not good enoughAnd then if you're lucky you start to think maybe I can buy.
RYAN: Yeah, I think, I think there's, there's acouple kind of evolutions of this. Number one is when unique to most people,when, when I've done Qualtrics for 22 years and we have this principle of allin like you are all in.
RYAN: I didn't do anything else. I didn't own rentalproperty. I didn't do one other thing. I didn't sit on boards, I didn't investin tech companies. It was all Qualtrics all the [00:03:00] time. The only thing that caught my interestwas I'd fly down to like Summer League and go play golf with Danny Ains or we'dgo meet up multiple times a year and I started to understand like the, the backoffice of basketball.
LOGAN: and is this like 2012.
RYAN: This is like 14, 15, 16, 17.
LOGAN: So Qualtrics is success at this point.
RYAN: Yeah we're on theIPO Road show. We're in, you know, we're in Boston and we go into the lockerroom during a game. We're on a pre road show and it's the playoffs and weplanned it out so that we could hang out with Danny.
RYAN: 'cause I was, it was just infectious. I, Iloved the back office and the inner workings of the NBA and so that's kindawhere this kind of spurred. And then when we sold the company, um, I rememberspecifically telling everyone like, [00:04:00]sorry, it's like, what are you gonna do? What are you do with your money?
RYAN: What are you gonna do with this? How's thisgonna work? Like, everything came down to, well I wanna do something with theNBA period. Hard stop. And, and, and by that time I had gotten to know Adam.We'd worked with the league. I'd been to all star games, I'd kind of been partof the NBB and even within SAP sitting on like the tech council of the NBA withSAP, um, it, it just happened. And then the process comes as like, okay, great.You and millions of other people wanna be part of the NBA. How you actuallypull that off?
LOGAN: Yeah And how do you di like how do youdifferentiate 'cause you came close twice once.
RYAN: so I took, I took a look. I mean, I flew downand met, um, with the folks in Phoenix and there wasn't a majority position attime there.
RYAN: It was more of minority. And I, you know, youkind, I kind of drew a circle around, Hey, I need like a two hour radius aroundfrom where I live so that I could [00:05:00]actually be helpful, hopefully. And I think Minnesota was on the outside ofthat, right? It was like two hour and six minutes. And that was one that I wentpretty far down road with, with Glen Taylor on.
RYAN: And you know, Utah was never in the cards.
LOGAN: And Ashley was the one that convinced you yourwife was like Hey this is this ours.
RYAN: Like, she just knows me and like, I like tokind of really get in and go all in on this stuff. And she's like, we're nevergonna see you. Like, you're never gonna want, like I know how this is gonna goand we're here, this is what we're doing.
RYAN: And it really like came, there was a couplemoments where it came to fruition. Like, like, okay, what about our jazztickets? It's like, well, we can't have jazz tickets and on, on that or be apart of that team. she's like, yeah, that our kids are.
LOGAN: So you it's a very practical implication tobut and Adam told you at the time like Hey or maybe once you bought the jazzlike people don't get to buy [00:06:00] their team and soyou cross paths with Gail Miller I assume in this community here And so are youlike Soft selling Hey I'm a you know I'd be a good steward for the for theorganization.
RYAN: know though. I mean, I asked her point blank,and it wasn't a soft sell. It was like, Hey, like there's a moment in time,there's a window here.
RYAN: I'm willing to go do this. Like,
LOGAN: what year is this?
RYAN: is 2019. And so atthat point it's in a trust The Miller family put the jazz in a trust of year tobeginning of 19. It was like, that's where it is. And the answer was not like,no. It was like, no way. been 35 years. Our family's gonna run it.
RYAN: And then, you know, know, stuff changes. Imean, we had the pandemic, we had a lot happen in the league. The bubble, like,I think, um, I think it's just become a, a pretty hands-on sport. And I alsobelieve that having like little bit more consolidation [00:07:00] in, in ownership group, like where there's asingle individual to make a decision helps a lot.
RYAN: Um, and because you wanna be nimble as anorganization. so I think as they started looking out, we started looking outthat, you know, I got call and said, Hey, are you still interested? And it'slike,
LOGAN: And it was just a one-to-one kind of broker?
RYAN: Yeah uh there was no bid.
LOGAN: There’s a reallycool uh article that we can link in the show notes of her talking about herdecision I guess she gave like a pretty exclusive interview to the Desireewhatever uh paper here And uh it was clear it was like an emotional decisionfor them And I can only imagine the process on.
RYAN: For sure. mean, 35years. I mean, I'm in, we're going into year And it would be emotional for usafter year three.
RYAN: Like, like it is, you put your heart, yoursoul, your time, you go to games. It's, it's, it's like founding a companyexcept for the difference is, is like at the end of the day, people don't careabout enterprise software. They care about this.
LOGAN: [00:08:00] Yeah
RYAN: Like, it is, it is another level. I mean,we're going into the 50th anniversary of the Utah and the emotion of fans is,is just a part of who they are.
RYAN: And it's, it's really the largest brand, youknow, I think, I think it's really the front door to Utah. And so I think when,wherever you go internationally, it's like, I mean, I was just in Croatia youknow, it's like Utah Jazz. Utah Jazz. Like, oh, you're from Utah, the jazz. Andthat's, that's how people know you.
LOGAN: What's something different about like thecustomer base of a fan versus like the customer base of an enterprise softwaret uh company It sounds like the the passion the level of that but like do youdo you think about communicating like the roadmap and the path you're on andyou guys obviously traded Donovan and Rudy Gobert and like how do you thinkabout the difference between those two.
RYAN: You know, it's interesting you say that. Ithink, you know, there needs to be a confidence level, which I think is verysimilar. Um, not only from a customer [00:09:00]base, but an employee base. If you're running company, um, I think that, youknow, you need to be able to show some sort of vision and, and innovation.
RYAN: Um, I, I would say the difference between andsports is in tech, like five outta tens good enough. I mean, if you look atSalesforce market share, it's still below 50% and they're deemed the categorywinner. We don't have that. There's only one of 30 teams that's happy at theend.
LOGAN: Yeah the jazz had been one of the mostsuccessful franchises of the
RYAN: third winningest team, and franchisors, secondwinningest team in the last 30 years. But we don't a championship.
LOGAN: That's what everyone says is the but.
RYAN: so, you know, the question is, can you be achampionship organization without winning a championship? Technically, youshould be able to win one out of every 30 years.
RYAN: Um, but especially nowadays, it's almost likeyou have to purposely take a step back. To put yourself in a position to win.And you gotta [00:10:00] get incredibly lucky, like incredibly lucky,especially if you're not in one of markets that are maybe three in the NBA,which would be, you know, la, Miami, maybe New York, but that's about it.
RYAN: Right? Um, which we haven't seen either.Right. And so I think, I think this is what, um, there, there's a lot ofdifferences there, but I, I also think there's a lot of advantages. Like ourfan base loves the jazz. They, I mean, we sold out like 251 straight gameswith, you know, okay teams and the best team then a not as good team, like, andthey're still there throughout it, which is a little bit different than techand a customer base because, you know, renewal rates are all over the place.
RYAN: And, uh, I think there's another loyalty levelthat's here with the team. And, you know, I speak from the heart because that'sme. Like, regardless, it's, it's part of who I've been. Since I was a kid andyou can't take it [00:11:00] outta me and youdon't really choose these things, like, it's like this is who you are.
LOGAN: is there something you've learned that like isbroadly applicable to business or tech that now you've you've been in this seatthat like Hey basketball does this And that's something that I wish morefounders did as well.
RYAN: I think, I think emotional, like part ofrunning a tech company speaks, at least for long time, right?
RYAN: I think, I think Running Tech is great.Running Tech for a long time is a different world. I mean, 22 years in tech feelslike you started seven or eight uh, because you're, you're always just one goodidea from someone else out there by being completely displaced. And so to beable to con, to continually reinvent, um, and find the energy to work on thesame problem that long, um, is a little bit different.
RYAN: And so I think. I think reason why I say thatis because I think is [00:12:00] you're, you're ableto take a little bit more of a long-term approach. Um, you've been able tomanage emotion maybe a little longer than other people. And I think as you getinto the M B A, what you find is, you know, we've all been in tech or someonewe worked with close or an executive, you know, chooses to leave or you gottabreak up and it's super, what feels like a, a mountain or hurdle you can't getby.
RYAN: Um, and you think like, how am I ever gonna,how are we ever gonna move on as we shift gears to go from a $200 millioncompany to a $600 million company? Or, you know, as some of my leaders say,like, or friends say who are now five and $10 billion companies, there's adifferent group for every phase of that journey.
RYAN: Um, And it just seems like insurmountable forpeople. I, I, I personally know founders who have sold their companies becausethey didn't wanna have to get a new band together. I mean, these are, these arecompanies we all [00:13:00] know. Just saying, Hey, look, you know what?I've worked with these people for seven or eight years.
RYAN: It's clearly that this isn't the team to go tothe next level. You what, I, I don't have it me. I don't wanna go get marriedto a whole new group of people. Go build off sites and go do it all together.In sports, all that is public. And there's another level of emotion that goesinto that, where being on that side now looking back at these insurmountable moment,they're not insurmountable.
RYAN: There's a, there's another level of that whereyou're doing that out in the public setting and the decisions are actually muchtrickier, because of it being a a winner takes all game. If it was a marketshare game, you would probably behave differently. Or if you were just tryingto make the playoffs every year because that made the money work and it madeyour stock not go down, [00:14:00] you're playing thebeat and raise model, you're not doing that in sports. And actually the beatand raise model frustrates people lot. I, I would, I would argue that our fanswould rather see us like, mean we had, we had fans cheering for us to obviouslybe worse than we were last year. Um, but we also wanna build a winning culture.
RYAN: so it's kind of an interesting dynamic, butthere's a lot of learnings. There's a lot of learnings. I mean, I think, Ithink the overlap is, it, it almost blends perfectly because I normally do techduring the day and basketball's at night, you know, play late games kind ofsleep in. You don't get to bed till late, you're on the road or whatever, andthen you're back at it and shoot rounds at three or four o'clock and then,well, tech is for me at least, and I'm different. I'm not the rolling at 11:00AM and stay up coding all night. I'm much more like, we're starting at [00:15:00] six.
LOGAN: Yeah So you brought in Danny Ange uh andthere's a street in Barcelona that I went to once it's called Las ROMs Have youever been there?
RYAN: Mm-hmm
LOGAN: It's like a little they've got a bunch oflittle markets on either side and whenever uh uh you go there everyone sayslike be careful There's pickpockets you don't get distracted
LOGAN: So I went there I was in college and I hadnever really got even though everyone told me I was gonna get pickpocketed.
RYAN: Yeah. Yeah.
LOGAN: So Danny, I bringing him in and working withhim it uh it feels like he is the the lost ramblas of this That he's just sogood at what he does from a trade standpoint and like how he architects teamsand all of that Are there elements of of Style that he brings to bear just in negotiatingor strategizing and all that that that you've really internalized from how he [00:16:00] operates and the style it?
RYAN: Well, so I think first of all, for me it'sjust, you know, we go back to tech. You, you know, we live in a culture in techwhere it's like surround yourself with the smartest people in the world. Wedon't care who's right. There's no ego. We, we typically have a flat, you know,org structure. We have an open office. You know, there's no offices atQualtrics. Like we've broken down a lot of the barriers that I would argue evengoing into the NBA.
RYAN: Like it felt a little bit like I was goingback in time because the hierarchy and there's a reason for it in the league,which we can get into sometime, but it felt different. And so, um, Danny. Isthe ultimate person that you would want to work with in that tech environment.Here's someone who's been in the league for 46 years.
RYAN: There's no ego. He, he, he empowers everyone.He's the opposite of what would think he would be. Where, Hey, don't worry. Igot it. He's incredibly collaborative. So from the interns down, who you got inthe draft, [00:17:00] who do you like, what are you doing? Like,it's just something wouldn't predict. I mean, I remember when the draft startedthis year, we were on like the third pick and he was out talking to an intern.
RYAN: Right. And I was just like, who, who are you?Like? And then, and then I think he really focuses on like team dynamics andlike how different players, even though it might not seem this way, bringdifferent things to the team that most people don't understand. And that's frombeing a coach and being a player and being, you know, and playing with, I don'tknow, was it six or nine?
RYAN: First ball hall of famers. Right. There's ateam dynamic. That, that he sees. Um, and then he's also not afraid of bettingon people or doing things that are unpopular. And I think that that's, that'sum, probably one of the biggest attributes that, that he has is he will do whathe believes is right, regardless [00:18:00]of anything else. And that's pretty rare today.
LOGAN: I'm looking over your shoulder and it saystune out the noise and play the long game there's no lights on. There's nonoise in his head.
RYAN: Right. And, and so I think when it comes tostarting off in building out like a culture to have him and then selecting WillHardy as our head coach, who was the youngest coach in the league when weselected him and Jay-Z and Dwayne and our ownership, like, it's actually likeperfect.
RYAN: And so, but more than that for me is just oneof my, one of my good friends. And to be able to go and. Work with him everyday is just like, it's just Right. feels, feels fun. Like we were talking aboutbrain typing this morning before you got here,
LOGAN: I well I actually I actually have a braintyping question that I'll to in a second on it But ne negotiating wise do umentering in those conversations and no [00:19:00]trades specifically but like this the have 29 other governors with you rightAnd you need to maintain relationships with all these people and you need tobuild trust with them But at the same time you're you know bartering Is thereany anything to that that you've seen that's that's particularly interesting
RYAN: Yeah it's a closedmarket. Right. So whoever you run up against, you're gonna have to run upagainst all the time. And, and actually people are way more friendly than themedia comes out to make 'em believe.
RYAN: Like we, we did a trade with Minnesota, wellwe've, we talked to Minnesota all the time. Like this is, This, these arerelationships. I think, um, Cleveland, you know, called this year was like,Hey, like I, I don't know what the, the, the number is, but like, I think thejazz and Cleveland have done a trade at some level, like four outta the lastfive years.
RYAN: Like no matter what it was even big or little.But you know, you have to have those [00:20:00]relationships and be connected with everyone and different trades are made or,or done for different reasons, right? Um, sometimes a team just doesn't believethat they have what it takes to get over that next hump.
RYAN: They're close and, and by the way, um, maybeeven get to that point where the right below that moment they've had tosacrifice. So if they were gonna go even more in, it's like literally almostyou're set in the franchise back without a higher than 5% chance of winning thewhole thing. You kind of gotta take a look at it.
RYAN: And that's a situation that, that we foundourselves in and that other people around the league, you can go around theleague and be like, whoa, these people are on a journey. They were supposed togo do something. Their players are starting to get into higher contracts. Thefinancials starting to, it's starting to get up there and they're not gonna winit, or they don't have a good chance of winning [00:21:00] Then you start seeing moves being made. Andyou know, you've also gotta get lucky. I mean, if someone, you know, we weregetting ready to host the All Star game and what you probably don't want to dois come in and move to All Stars when you're hosting it the next year. And I don'tthink anyone had Lowry Marketing starting the All-Star game on their bingocard.
RYAN: Right. And um, so, but I know Danny and Jay-Z,they loved Lowry and you know, we had seen them play in Euro hoops and likethere was something there if he could be a more focused player in the offense.
Getting rid of the RSN Deal
LOGAN: One of the other things you've done sincetaking over is the um you got rid of the RCN deal and you've gone direct toconsumer your your R S n sorry not RCN What were the inputs into that and howhow you sort of 'cause it's you and the suns I think that have them.
RYAN: Yeah, they're alldifferent, but they're, look, the RSS n model and cable and media altogether islike, it's [00:22:00] pretty disruptive right now. Like it's beingdisrupted in a, in a bunch of different ways.
RYAN: But the reason why it's coming up now isbecause most of these contracts, I mean, we were, we were on a 10 yearcontract. So if you actually think about when this contract was signed, it wassigned in an era that, um, isn't like the same. I mean, there's like Netflix, Dv D days, like all of these different things.
RYAN: And um, what we would do is we would basicallytake all of our media rights. We would hand them over to a third party, theywould give us a check and then just go. And we didn't have input on anythingelse. That was it. We were just basically franchising those out. And theproblem is, I come from a world of experience and customer experience, and wehave three, we have the fastest growing state.
RYAN: We have the youngest state in Utah, and wewere showing our games to about 1.2 of the 3.4 million people that live in thestate, let alone [00:23:00] showing games to the folks in Idaho andWyoming, which are right here. And so great, we were getting a guaranteedcheck, but we actually weren't building our brand. It was a number one thing Iwould hear from fans is like, we can't watch the games.
RYAN: And you our players, our coach Danny, um,ownership, like we work way too hard to not let the product be out there. Andso what we said was, we're gonna basically become free agents. We're not gonnasign a media deal, we're gonna. Work on a deal that's over the air. So we go to3.2 million people, we're actually going to sign a deal, um, for streaming.
RYAN: So anyone who wants to consume the media astreaming environment can do that. We're actually going to expand our marketand go into the neighboring states. And so we're going to ink that deal. And sowe think we can go from like essentially showing games of 1.2 million people tomaybe four or 5 million, and that'll be done [00:24:00] overnight, basically.
RYAN: And so that's a really unique model, but Ialso think it positions us for where media is going. We don't know where it'sgonna be in the next four or five years, but this idea that you enter intothese long-term relationships where you don't control your own destiny and youdon't control the end product, um, we don't wanna be a part of that. No matterhow much that check is. It's not as big as us building out the brand
LOGAN: And is that the trade I mean it sounds sological to me Hey why of course you would do this the way talking about it butis it really the the cash flow cycle then?
RYAN: Oh yeah sure Thecertainty of talking, you're talking, I mean,
LOGAN: yeah hundreds and hundreds and plus
RYAN: but, but in our situation, we've, we've had, Ithink there's a couple teams I've seen that have a little bit of a dislocationin their market versus that check size. Okay. So, um, if I were to look at, I,I don't wanna get too, too much into teams business, but there are some teamsthat their, their check size [00:25:00] is so big theycould never do it.
RYAN: Like the, the gap is too big. We have had sucha fast growing market in those 10 years that we're gonna take a hit, but wethink because of that market size increase being the fastest growing state thatwe can get back there.
LOGAN: It’s the old on-premto SaaS transition
RYAN: It's, it's a hundred. I mean, this is exactlywhat it is. And, um, You're, you're going after eyeballs now.
LOGAN: So you have 29 otherpeople that you interact with fairly regularly Right Plus Adam plus whateverall the other people Adam like he's my friend Um and uh are are there thingswithin the league that you've like found as your own passion projects withinthe organization itself Beyond making the jazz product as as good as it can beOr are you still sort of getting your sea legs in the league?
RYAN: No, I mean, it takes a little while. I thinkI've been pretty tech focused. Like I think we, you know, historically in theleague, um, my more the youngest group, [00:26:00]uh, definitely the one that's actually operating or has been operating in techstill.
RYAN: Where, you I think one of the things Adam toldme when I came in was, Hey, like whatever you have learned, don't check it atthe door. Bring that to, to the N B We want that. Which is kind of differentthan what you would think instead of going in and learning that, it's like, no,no, no, no. We, we, we want you in here.
RYAN: And bringing everything from Qualtrics andwhat it is. So I think, I think the experience side has been something that,that we love. Like if you actually think about what Qualtrics does is we'repowering the customer, the fan, the employee experience of the world. You know,there's like 50 different airlines, whether you fly on Delta or everything.
RYAN: It's like, it's always called, we're trying tohelp them through not only what happened on their current experience they'reproviding, but where they want to go next. And so there's a lot of that withinthe NBA. So how does that translate? Um, you know, I [00:27:00] just joined the media committee right on, youknow, we're coming into a next big media deal, which I think is a reallypivotal moment in the league on like how that goes.
LOGAN: And so will eithergo very well or very poorly And we'll see how it I mean I'm sure it'll be good.
RYAN: But, but I think, I think. Like how this isdone is super, super interesting and there's a great group of people, and I'mexcited to go and contribute at that level. Um, I think what we've done on, um,using the NBA platform, I think we, we hosted All-Star differently.
RYAN: I mean, it, it, it really felt like weactivated the entire city and state for the All-Star, which was what we wantedto do. Um, and I think everyone who came felt that this last year, uh, Ibelieve, um, you know, we just launched the clothing line, right? We, welaunched our own clothing line called Counterpoint.
LOGAN: The NBA did the jazz, right?
RYAN: I'm just joined the social justice committeefor the, for the NBA and how we're gonna use, um, the NBA to make community [00:28:00] impact, um, in many different areas. And Ithink that came from our work with Fight for the Fight and the Jersey patch.And, you know, we know this in tech worlds that.
RYAN: The platform of tech or a business is the bestway to, to make change. Um, and when we sold Qualtrics, my, one of my biggestfears was, wait, we have this massive engine to actually do good, and it's waybetter than any individual, no matter how much money they have to do good.You'd rather have an engine that could continue to do good because you have somany more resources, not just money, but help.
RYAN: And the NBA is another level of that platform.And so we've seen this idea. We sponsored the Jersey patch, and this is lastyear that we're doing the Jersey patch, but we raised $50 million for cancerresearch and now we're building out another campaign with the M B A for cancerresearch,
LOGAN: And we by the way tell so Phi for the fight
RYAN: Yeah. Fight for the fight.
LOGAN: When you went to your uh board at Qualtricssaid Hey by the way we're gonna do this non-profit thing that was [00:29:00] super expensive And uh maybe tell tell tellwhat that is for people.
RYAN: Yeah. So, so when the Jersey patch came out,we put five for the fight on the jersey and I, and I paid for by Qualtrics anddonate and not put Qualtrics there, which is the first time in sports.
RYAN: And I mean, Donovan Mitchell wins the slamdunk contest and you're seeing five for the fight instead of Qualtrics. I'mjust like, this one is amazing, but it's also, it hurts. And that's kind ofwhen you want to be, you want be in a spot where it's like, it hurts.Especially with enterprise software, where brand lift is the hardest thing todo.
LOGAN: It's so ethereal.
RYAN: Yeah. It's so hard to drive brand lift andenterprise software. Right. And so it was a perfect thing, but it's been such acool thing for the
LOGAN: and it's for cancer
RYAN: Yeah, cancer research. And we said we're gonnaraise, you know, in five years we're gonna raise $50 million.
RYAN: And we raised $50 million for cancer research.And it all started by using that platform of the NBA now. We're just mixing upthe campaigns. So someone else will grab the jersey patch, but we're putting abell and doing cancer, um, [00:30:00] stuff allthroughout the arena. Um, at the All-Star game, the celebrity All-Star game,the beneficiary was fight for fight.
RYAN: Like we would've never dreamed of that. Who,who would've known that that would've been, you know, a thing like I, I wasshooting three pointers with Dwayne Wade to, to go in like every bucket countedfor five for the fight. Like, that's insane.
LOGAN: You you referenced earlier brain typing andproductivity is one of the things uh I'm curious about So one of the things youI think you said uh was it's not actually about being productive a hundredpercent of the day but instead getting the most out of your day Um how do youthink about that How do you sort of orient your day from a productivitystandpoint?
RYAN: So productivity over time is, is tricky.
RYAN: Like, um, Some people are like, I've done thesame thing for 20 years. This is how I do it. I'm not that person. Like, I wantto switch it up. I will [00:31:00] switch it up days,I will switch it up weeks. Um, I, I'm always trying to introspect how am Ifeeling? How am I feeling? Because productivity is a feeling. Um, there'sdefinitely a measurable outcome, but I think it's as much also an internalfeeling if we just assume we all work hard.
RYAN: Like how, how is it that we're getting througheverything and how do we feel like we're getting through it? Like, I want tofeel good about my work and for me do that, not only do I need to do it, I needto do it well by the way that it's measured, but I don't always feel the sameway. So over the years, um, there's a lot that did, uh, I an admin who was astatistician who would go back through and like, Measure every hour I spend atthe end of a quarter and give it to me to let me know, like, okay.
RYAN: And we'd sit there, turn the paper over and belike, okay, how much time do spend on [00:32:00]all of these categories? And I was always way off. So our minds don't reallyunderstand the productivity the way that we think we do. And so one of thethings that, that I begin to tell people is like, okay, first all, everyoneneeds to feel like they're an individual contributor.
RYAN: One of the problems you get into, and I'm surea lot of people in your pod are CEOs and leaders and executives, like you can'tsit up and operate as this high paid router, just taking things and routing'em.
LOGAN: stuff will wear you down
RYAN: It just like, that's not gonna make you feelbetter or be able to be better for the rest of the company.
RYAN: And in my case, I found myself in thatposition a lot. And so what I would do is like, I would wake up in the morningand instead of just going right into the office, I'd go have breakfast bymyself. And that was my individual contributor time. I would literally sitthere with my music in my [00:33:00] headphones and Iwould get some wins before I went and got into the office because then it'slike, all right, bring it, come on, I'm ready for it.
RYAN: As opposed to getting into office,everything's coming. And my wife and I call 'em zingers. Like we get zingerslike, Hey, how's your day going? I got like five zingers this morning, and weall know what those are. 'cause it just like, ugh, like you want to get somemomentum before that happens. Mornings are everything for me.
RYAN: Um, but I think right now, you know, I'mtrying to find my new way to be productive when I've got my hands on a lot ofthings. How does that work? Um, physical space is really important, like whereI'm at. Is really important for me to be productive. I'm incredibly productiveon airplanes. It's weird. Like I will actually think through that and use thattime as like some of my favorite time.
RYAN: Like I [00:34:00] love airplane time.I'll write, I'll email, I'll get caught up. Like that's it. And so justunderstanding those moments and then understanding also that, and, and this isan NBA thing as well, is this is part of the reason why as we think about thefuture of work and where we're working from and working in person and workingremote team, productivity is what we're measured on.
RYAN: There's no individual winners if the team islosing. And I think that's been a little bit lost in this idea of tech is somany people saying, well, personally, I am more productive at home. I don'tcare. The other part of your job that maybe. The group hasn't told you about isthat you're supposed to share your information with the team members, andyou're supposed to be an instrumental part in helping them win.
RYAN: And I've watched too many [00:35:00] people over the last four five years saying,Hey, I'm winning personally, but the team is not winning. And by the way, italso goes the other way. If the team is winning, are you winning personally?And we know that that relationship is always happening. Hey, the company'swinning, but what's in it for me?
RYAN: Well, gotta be the other way around as well.And that dynamic is really important. And so I believe that, you know, I, Iknow at Qualtrics from when we were, and, and this is hot topic, but when wewere remote, it was super hard to get the team to win.
LOGAN: And everyone probably or most of the companyprobably felt they were more productive at home 'cause like you're not gettinginterrupted.
RYAN: But, if we were looking at what our personalproductivity would do for a company like ours in 2004, no one would've thoughtby adding up all their personal productivity that we would be where we were in [00:36:00] 2010. But something magic happened when we gottogether.
RYAN: We, we not only like one X, we like three orfour or five x and had breakthroughs and trying to dissect and pull that apartand understanding which pieces and where. I, I don't know. I'm not saying thateveryone needs to be in office all the time, but I'm saying is what matters isthe team wins if a company can get there or the team's winning.
RYAN: But that for me is, is everything. I don't, Idon't care if one of our players has. A 70.9 or a 50.9 if the team loses.
LOGAN: where do Qualtrics land on the uh what's thecurrent policy?
RYAN: I mean, it's shifting. We're trying to geteveryone back into the office. Um, depending on location and role and function,there are some functions where we don't think they need to be back.
RYAN: But where, where I'm much more interested assaying, Hey, what, what about [00:37:00]the other part of everyone's job? And how well have we passed on this tribalknowledge that we have as an organization down? And that's where it doesn'tshow up in personal productivity because you don't understand how many peopleare watching you and watching what the tone for an organization.
RYAN: But if, if you've got, you know, 2,500 peoplewho joined the company, since everyone's been remote, it's super, superdifficult.
LOGAN: Now you weren't officially the CEO until theSequoia and Accel round is that right And so it was just you Jared
RYAN: Yeah. we called it like the team of four.
LOGAN: Who who was the four
RYAN: Uh, my father and then, uh, Stuart Orle.
LOGAN: And so it was the four of you And then Sequoiasaid Hey someone needs to be a CEO And Jared said well it's not me.
RYAN: Yeah, I would, I remember sitting in front ofLeoni, Maritz and Schreyer and Sequoia's office, and they [00:38:00] looked over and said, Hey, we're gonna writethe check, but one of you needs to be a CEO it was just awkward silence. 'causeJared had, Jared had just moved back from Google a couple years earlier and hejust, he was running Google China and he is like, okay, wait. I'm not movingback to Utah for a young startup and working for my younger brother. Like,that's not in the carts. What have you done?
RYAN: Like, look what I've done. But he's also likeI don't wanna be the media facing and then stood up and like, was awkward,silent silence. It was like, it felt like forever. And all of a sudden he stoodup and he is like, it's him. He's the CEO. And I was like, what? He's like, Idon't do media. And that was it.That was his whole rationale.
LOGAN: And so one of the things you said though I Iknow it was um I It was a growing experience like being a CEO is for for anyoneI'm sure Uh but that what you benefited most from was being a fast learner overthe experience [00:39:00] itself What what was stepping into the the CEOrole I guess did anything actually change that day when Jared said it's him Andthen what was the development process of being a fast
RYAN: Well, think Jared, I mean, he's just such aunique individual, but he, he definitely made it his mission to prepare me. Andthat's pretty amazing thing to do, is like his whole mission was to. mentor me.And I think he did that for 10 years, which is kind of crazy if you think aboutit.
RYAN: Um, he knew where my blind spots were and thenhe augmented his own growth to augment me. So someone once asked like, what doyou get at? Or What is Jared good at? And he is like, I'm basically good ateverything that Ryan's not, and that's why I think Qualtrics worked. Um, thatbeing said, the c e o or any executive on a high trajectory needs to be thefastest learner the building.[00:40:00]
RYAN: And like when you think you're dead set onsomething, it's hard balance. It's like, how do you have this incredibleconfidence and fear, but at the same time to be able to lead and do things. Butat the exact same time, able to, um, admit when you're wrong and like move onand know when to take feedback.
LOGAN: We were talking about this a little bit beforewe started taping but there's a there's a visualization exercise Bill Gates andPaul Allen I did in the early days of Microsoft about where they would lookthink about what the company would be in the distant future um and build towardsthat I guess I've heard you reference it Is that a strategy exercise in yourmind A leadership exercise Uh what why why have you referenced that Like howhas that impacted you?
RYAN: I, think just going through enough, uh, and sofirst of all, I, I do know of this, um, going through enough planning exercisesis the beginning of the year. [00:41:00] Ithink a lot of times we, we write something down or we get a group together andwe say, Hey, you know, championship on three, but there's actually no way we'regonna get there.
LOGAN: That's an output too.
RYAN: It's an, it's an output and it, it makeseveryone feel good in the moment. Um, but I, I just like to start with the endin mind on a lot of things and it actually, um, You know, it's this concept ofalmost like, let's do the pre-mortem instead of the post-mortem. Like, let's,let's go through and actually go through the pain to say, okay, take ourbusiness in 2026.
RYAN: You know, if you're a company and you work inSAS and you're saying, Hey look, we've got, you know, a hundred million dollardeals right now and you're growing at 40%, you've gotta ask yourself, okay, infour years, how many million dollar deals are you gonna have? Oh, wow. Like,you actually gotta be doing that every month every quarter.[00:42:00]
RYAN: Like people won't go through that exercise,but it actually provides a roadmap for you without even creating one. You knowthat when you're in the moment and you've gotta make a decision that's going toimpact deal size or talent that you know what you're solving for already. Andso, um, You know, we'll, we'll often, you know, whether it's product or whetherit's something or it's just like, okay, bring me the, bring me your pressrelease.
RYAN: Let's walk through your press release at theend of the year or end of the quarter, the end of 90 days. You're, you, youreally like this product. We're shipping it. I want to release a, I want you towrite the press release, and I want to write like what it is. And I've evenused this exercise when we, we were acquiring a company.
RYAN: I remember we acquired a stats company outta YCombinator called Stats iq And it was like, oh, we do stats. And it's like,okay, you do, you do stats in the cloud. And it's like, yeah. And I was like,all right, let's go down and sit down and write this press And we, we wrotethis press [00:43:00] release and it was like, this is the firstever low-code, no-code stats cloud platform in the world.
RYAN: And it's now hooked onto Qualtrics. Sobasically every single person is gonna be able to come a statistician by usingQualtrics and taking their data. And we've completely democratized everything.And it's like, well, no, we don't do that. I was like, well, well no, that'sexactly what we're And it took a minute, but then that's exactly what we endedup doing with this product.
RYAN: 'cause that became the vision. Just by simplygoing through that, that exercise, having to actually talk through it, havingto say, no, we're not gonna do that, or Yeah, we're gonna do that
LOGAN: so it's not as much it's not it's kind ofneither strategy nor leadership It's a forcing function of an exercise of thetactics that will actualize to an outcome in some way It's sort of like thescore will take care of itself or whatever it is Like let's focus on the inputsof this as [00:44:00] well as the long-term vision
RYAN: Yeah. It's a little bit like if you werecomparing to basketball, Hey, if we, if we make five, three pointers and we get70% of the rebounds, we're gonna win no matter what.
RYAN: And so what you're doing is you're looking ata moment that you're putting down a memorializing. And then you're looking backat the team, the product or the boat, and you're like, yeah, okay, I see that.Or Yeah, that's what we're doing. That's not gonna work. And so you're able tocourse correct based on that outcome.
RYAN: And I think we do it in life. I've shared thisstory a bunch. Like people I know in life feel like they're doing a bad job ateverything. It's a common thing you hear, I'm doing a bad job as a parent, I'mdoing a bad job as a husband or a wife, or whatever it is. I'm doing a bad jobas a leader.
RYAN: And then the question is, is like, okay, let'sjust take this week. What would that moment be on Saturday night where youwould feel like you did an [00:45:00] most can'tarticulate it. I was like, so you're gonna feel bad about yourself all thetime, but you can't articulate what's gonna make it feel like you killed itthis week.
RYAN: Like, what is it? Well, let's say his husband,like with Ash, I'd be like, okay, if I like took Ash to lunch one day thisweek, I got her flowers and I did something else nice that no one wasexpecting. I'd actually feel like I was a pretty good husband and I was cleanthis week. I like clean the house or whatever.
RYAN: Like I would feel like I did something and I'mlike, whoa, I could do all that by Tuesday. If I thought through it and thenlike the kids the same way, like individualizing it. And that's the differencebesides waking up with no plan of how you're gonna get something done. And soin a way you're, you're childproofing or you're [00:46:00] creating a framework.
RYAN: It's a framework to think about things throughand actually think about big things. what seems like moonshots actually become.Just what you do.
Dropping out of high school and going to South Korea
LOGAN: I wanna back up to the Qualtrics uh story alittle bit here So so you had a one nine g p a at high school You didn't takethe SATs and then you only graduated so that you could go on a trip to SouthKorea with with your friends Can can you tell me a little bit about like RyanSmith up to years old
RYAN: It wasn't, um, it wasn't a good picture. Um,I, I don't know why, like, I, I was pretty athletic. Um, I worked a golf coursewhen I was 14. My parents split up when I was 14, kind of just took that momentand just didn't, didn't really care.
RYAN: You know, world was rocked a little bit youknow, you kind of take these moments and you kind of get back on the horse andof, it was just a weird time I went as a teenager and just, I just. Didn't careabout a whole lot. And, um, dropped outta high school as a sophomore and likeliterally dropped out, didn't go school.
RYAN: I played golf and during the day and didn'thave a lot of supervision to tell me or authority that could tell me what do.And, um, then, my friends, uh, I actually started working at one of the earlytech companies that sold to Excite at home and someone was looking out for meand just said, Hey, you're up to no good. Come over here.
LOGAN: when you were like 16
RYAN: I was like 16. It was my uncle and I, he gaveme a job and I was with all these tech guys and two of them had just gottenback from Seoul, Korea where they were teaching English. And I was like, well,I'm gonna teach English. And I went to my dad and said, [00:48:00] I'm gonna Seoul, Korea.
RYAN: And he said, well, you gotta graduate highschool. And so like in three months, I just ripped through it all. I didn'tcare about the G P a, didn't care about anything, and and went over to s SoKorea,
LOGAN: You showed up and the job wasn't there
RYAN: wasn't there. My friends came home, I calledmy dad and said, Hey, this isn't working out.Go to the the time, go to theairport for an international ticket. And he is like, no. Like,
LOGAN: because your friend's dad's bought the bought
RYAN: And, and my dad's like, no. I'm like, you gota place to sleep? Good. Go, go sort this out.
LOGAN: And you didn't really have a place to sleep?
RYAN: No. And his, his whole idea was like, look,you're at rock bottom here.
RYAN: There's, there's a chance you might learnsomething if you can hang out there. And you know, I ended up coming from Koreayear later
LOGAN: And so what did in that moment your dad saysfigure it out and there's no job And so you go and find a
RYAN: I had a contact of one [00:49:00] individual, I went and just like literallycalled his place all the time, went found him.
RYAN: It was life or death. And you know, over thatyear I had to learn about myself. I had to learn, first of all, are my ideasgood? Do I know how to work? All the things that probably I didn't feel like Iwas. And then I got some wins and I started making some money. And started likebuilding a business and just having confident that like, okay, there's thisconnection between what's in my brain and what's in my heart and my feet.
RYAN: I can go do something. And I think it kind ofpaved the way for the rest of my life. And it was that moment where it waslike, all right, you're gonna have to go create something
LOGAN: And in a quite literal sense I mean I I I'veheard you talk about it but like you would sleep at the school and then make upyour bed and then the kids would come in and you would teach and then that waslike your rotation.
RYAN: No one knew. No one [00:50:00] knew that I was like, living on the couch.Like it would've been one of those things where you find the employee sleepingin the, the, hallway or the, the stairwell. Like I had no, I like no one knew.
LOGAN: It's quite literally like a movie scene itfeels like And then from there so So you established like more regimen and sortof get back on track for that And then did you go straight from there toMexico.
RYAN: Yeah, decided, um, you know, it wasinteresting. I moved, I moved in with, um, I actually ended up moving in withfour guys who had served l d s missions in Korea. And I was like, wait, likethis world's different. 'cause they weren't now partying all time.
RYAN: They were, they were super buttoned up. Theyspoke the language, but were fun. They were like, you're like I thought Ithought there were only two I was wait a minute, how can you be like someonewho is contagious that you want to [00:51:00]hang out with all the time, but you're not out partying like that?
RYAN: That didn't compute to me and I was like, Iwanna be like them. Like I actually want to be like them. And I started gettinginto it and I decided I wanted to go on a mission and I hadn't, I hadn't reallybeen on that path at all. And I came home and you kind of submit your paperswhere you don't know, you go to one of 300 countries, you pay for it.
RYAN: So I'd saved enough money in Korea. Not onlydid I want to go, I had saved all the money. And I knew my brothers wouldn'tbelieve me that I was gonna do this. So I, I remember walking in and saying,Hey, I'm going on a mission and here's the money to pay for it. And they werelike, well, he's serious. There's money, right?
RYAN: And I get called, you get a letter and I getcalled to Mexico City. And so like, here I am going, whoa. I was just in likethe fifth largest city in the world. Now I'm. It's the number one largest cityin the world. And by the time I got to Mexico that summer, I was like, I couldhandle it. [00:52:00] I was like, okay, I'm built for this.
RYAN: And then it was just like, it was like thisthree and a half year period where it was almost a little bit like, Hey listen,you screw up. Like there's a bigger plan for you. I know you can't see it, butthere's a bigger plan here. And almost like someone was grabbing me saying,Hey, like you're not going down that road.
RYAN: Like this is where you're supposed to be. Andwent on my mission, came back from my mission, decided I want to to schoolwalk. I was like, wait, like I've only got a 1.9 G p. I haven't taken the a c Tor any of this stuff. Registered at a community college, got a 4.0, transferredup to B Y U, got into B Y U, which is incredibly difficult.
RYAN: End up getting into the business school, endup starting Qualtrics, end up meeting my wife and kind of the rest is history.And so I. Like for me, there's like two lives of Ryan Smith. There's like theprior life or the before life, and then like the life where it's like, no,we're gonna go do something. And um, it's pretty, it's [00:53:00] pretty incredible when you kind of think backand look at that way.
LOGAN: I I've heard you say that you some of thelessons or a bunch of the lessons you've learned on the mission and maybe it'smission in in Korea Yeah You used throughout your life as a as a leader or Yeahfor sure What what were some of the interesting things that came out of thatthat that are applicable
RYAN: The one I try toteach my kids is like walking down the street every day in Mexico City. Andthis is not like, I mean, I had the worst places I was in. Like, I was in theplace where the Locos don't go. And, and this is every day I lived there. Ilived right by the airport. I lived, um, all over down there.
RYAN: Like one of them is, um, just awareness.Awareness around you. I mean like head on a swivel and like, I think that'ssomething that, that you can't, you can't really teach. Um, so that's one thatI've always was kind of top of mind. The other thing is, um, you know, whenwhen you're on mission, you're working [00:54:00]towards a singular goal and focus and there's incredible power of focus, you'renot doing anything And that was such a luxury to feel the level of focus thatyou could actually get when you actually kind of tune out the right? As aswe're looking back
RYAN: Right. Um, and then I think, I thinkrelationships matter. Like if I look at the relationships of the people who Istill work with, who, you know, I, I work with one of the individuals whochanged my life in Seoul, Korea.
RYAN: Um, Stuart Orle was one of our co-founders whowas mission companion. Um, like that, that matters. And then I also think thatlike, doing it your way, like this was not the way I was. People thought Iwould go, people, you know, I, I decided at that point, like, I'm never goingback to that old Ryan. And like everyone everywhere I've been my professionalcareer has been like, like [00:55:00] accepting of who Iam today and what I stand for and what I believe.
RYAN: And like, people don't see that all the time.think that it's gonna be hard. don't drink, I don't do certain things. Likeit's never been a problem. It's actually been an advantage.
RYAN: Hmm And so I think that like, I think it'sinspirational for people to say, Hey, like your, every one of us is unique souland a unique individual.
RYAN: And like, you can do it your way and it canwork out. And so I think, I think that's a lesson that I'm like trying to tellmy kids as well is like, look, all of you and I have five kids, they all comein different packages even though mom and dad are like, you know, you know,thinking that they're all gonna be kind of this similar spinoff of us, they'renot.
RYAN: And so how do you unlock the, the kind ofcreative magic that each one 'em has and kind of let them believe that they can[00:56:00] go do that? Um, or, or for me, like I don'tthink, I don't know that kids are ever gonna have that career experience. Likethat was pretty unique and, and pretty much saved my life.
LOGAN: so now you're at B Y U you have an internshipin Southern California you get a call dad has cancer you come home And that wasactually kind of the genesis Qualtrics sort of came out of?
RYAN: Yeah, for sure. Like, um, I just in like postKorea Mission fashion emailed a bunch of people in the business school who werealumni at B Y U at the Marriott School and said, Hey, I'm gonna be inCalifornia.
RYAN: you have a job? And someone emailed me. Thisis, this is right. I mean this is like 2001, right? Um, kind of not a, not atime for startup. And someone said like, Hey, I'm about ready to hire someone.I'm at hp. That was a stable job. Then everyone had gone through that tech boomand then everyone [00:57:00] rushed back tobrick mortar and didn't want to go to do with anything with tech becauseeveryone got boomed or got got everyone got burned.
RYAN: And so I was down there, I was in the middleof internship, it was going great. I was living in Huntington Beach, driving upto, to like Long Beach area. Um, and my dad called and just got that call thatit's like, what do you do? He is like, I just want to tell you personally, likeI got some really bad news.
RYAN: This is happening. you know, I don't have muchlonger, no one knows and I'm trying to figure it out. The family's devastated.Um, And I'd become pretty close with my dad. Like, I think, I think that's onething you know, post Korea, he, he's just a gifted human who was able to doincredibly hard things for me, but he knew me, he knew how to communicate withUm, where like ages 14 through 18, it's one of those things where like theolder I got, [00:58:00] wiser
LOGAN: Yeah yeah Amazing how much he learned that
RYAN: yeah. He really grew. Uh, and then like, hejust had his own way. Like he'd never do anything for me, but he'd always bethere for me. And, and so I was just like, no, I gotta go be there for him.
RYAN: Like, you've totally changed my life. Like Iam going to be there for you. And he, I, I was there and he'd go do hisradiation treatments and then like, he'd come home and was floored. I was like,we can't do this. Like, let's go do something.
RYAN: you know, I had been working in tech. He hadthis idea, he been working on it and we just said like, this what we're gonnado.
RYAN: But he had, he had throat cancer. And, um, youknow, he couldn't speak. And Qualtrics one start, it was incrediblysophisticated. I mean, this was an academic product and the people on the otherside were PhD researchers who were some of the best and brightest in the world.I didn't know anything about them, and so we really had to wing it.
RYAN: We really had say, Hey, [00:59:00] like, I mean, he was writing stuff down. WhileI'm on, I'm on calls with like, like, you know, professors from U N C, I'llnever forget, like John Lynch at Duke, who runs Dan a. All those people learnedunder him. He's, he's a godfather of research and like I'm on the phone withhim trying to guess what he's gonna do or the problems he's got in this littlesoftware app that we've created.
LOGAN: because your dad was a professor I guess
RYAN: he was a professor and we were, we were insuch a niche group and that's when I decided like, Hey dad, like. If you can bethat side, like I'm really good at the business side. I can grow this thing.Like, and then Stu joined and like we got up and we got it going.
LOGAN: Was your dad coding it?
RYAN: He was, he was helping code it, but it wasvery much the methodology around it because at the time, the integrity of theprocess of research online was not a widely accepted practice. I mean, in fact,all the [01:00:00] journals would say it wasn't valid because ofsample sizing and everything else, and it wasn't in person.
RYAN: And that's crazy today. But that's, those wereliterally the obstacles we would deal with. And so we had to have a lot of, youknow, blessing from academics who had published in aid journals to say, Hey,actually what people say online is actually true at some level. And you cantest it, you could actually publish from it.
RYAN: And so getting all these people to publish andthen from there, Wanting to be able to take that to corporations. Like therewas still a lot skepticism. and, and this was back when you wouldn't entercredit card so going through all of that was, was interesting.
LOGAN: So so uh you got it going and Northwesternsigned up and UNC signed up and you got uh some schools using it but your dadwas kind of like this isn't a real thing Uh you go [01:01:00] get another job And so then you were at Ford?
RYAN: Yeah. Like Ford was recruiting, they weretaking one or two students from B Y U and like I got the job and then wanted meto go Dearborn and I was like, I wanna do, I wanna do Qualtrics.
RYAN: And my dad's like, no, like you can't doQualtrics. So I convinced him to let me go to Denver and my job was to workbrand marketing and launch the F one 50 for the west, the new body style. So Ihad all the states in the west and I remember working there and then on, on mylunch break. I was still like closing deals and I closed Royal Caribbean cruiselines and I closed the deal for about as much as they would pay me at Ford forthe year.
RYAN: And I remember calling my dad and I was like,are we doing this? Like, like I'm, I'm like literally working in the morningsat lunch and at night if I went full time, like there's something there. But Iwas in school as well. And so [01:02:00]it was complicated, but we got to the right thing and I think, um, I had tofight for it.
RYAN: And I also learned a ton at forward. Like,like I, I learned that like, hey, you can market, you're good. Like youunderstand the brand side. Um, you have good ideas and you know, especiallywith multimillion dollar ad agencies coming in and pitching how you're gonnalaunch this. And, um, all of that mattered.
LOGAN: you touched on expanding on a corporate Uh I Iknow that wasn't easy or getting out of the academic world I would say that'sprobably not something we encourage our companies to do to start in academiaand then expand corporate Your first seven enterprise customers left I think uhI don't know if Royal Caribbean one of 'em but uh first two sales reps wantedto quit How did you go about expanding from the academic market to thecorporate market and was that the vision that like okay if this is gonna be bigwe need to get these other [01:03:00] people.
RYAN: I mean, this was probably like part of thepress release thesis of like, okay, this is what we're gonna do. We're gonnahave academia because we're already here and we can pay the bills that way. Butthe, the real pitch is like, how do we get them to tell corporations becauseacademics have no money and you know, we didn't have money for marketing, so weneeded to use, we always viewed the academic as like, Hey, if we treat academicsdifferent than everyone else, they'll be great marketing for us.
RYAN: And every company wants to break into that wathat world. This is very much like back the day it was like, oh, this is likeApple and the apple won an Apple two. And you learn through academia, this islike LexiNexis. This is like people have done this model. Everyone wants to dothat. There's not a product out there that's like, Hey, we don't want theacademic market.
LOGAN: you start and then they graduate And Esri didit famously with like maps right Yeah And like now it's the standard in thesoftware
RYAN: Yeah. It, it happens there, but it's ahorrible mo You're never getting investment
LOGAN: can't monetize
RYAN: can't monetize it. And so we, we were juststuck there.
RYAN: And then [01:04:00] a couple things happened. Number one is, um,students started graduating.
RYAN: Kellogg made it a mandatory class. Um, westarted doing their field study projects for their M B A students. And Ispecifically remember calling every single M B student who did a field studyfor a third party and saying, Hey, could you make the connection so that wecould go and sell? mean, it was grassroots.
RYAN: Like this wasn't, we didn't have a teamwasn't, this is me on the phone waking up every morning and saying, Hey, whoare we calling Stew's doing the same thing and servicing. I'm like, this is howwe're doing
LOGAN: So just to be clear academic they did a fieldstudy at Northwestern for M B A you're like Hey can you put me in touch withyour contact that?
RYAN: a hundred percent. Like I a hundred percent.Like I specifically remember someone from doing a research study on Qualtricsfrom Heineken, and it went well. And it's the first time they've ever doneanything like it. And me saying, all right, gimme a contact to Heineken. Like,let's go. And they ended up buying a 50,000 license. And so this was, this washow we were [01:05:00] gonna go do it. And then it was our job toland them and, and kind of educate. 'cause we were doing something new forthese companies. And the idea was, is like, look, research isn't this outsourcething. It's not a partner. You actually predict the future and like you can beright.
RYAN: And that was our whole pitch. 2000 7, 8 9happened. Um, Where marketing departments pretty much went away. I mean, youknow, we have a lot of volatility in the macro environment right now, and youhear every earnings, oh well the macro environment, unless you're Nvidia, butlike if you look at, if you look at that world, that's interesting, butactually companies still intact.
RYAN: Back then companies were not intact for us.And so, but what did happen is everyone went back to universities. Universitieshad more money than And so we got fresh start and we kept rolling. And wholetime we were bootstrapped, you know, if we didn't make it, we didn't need it.
Cheaper, faster, better
LOGAN: And did did some of the brands move stuffin-house that was otherwise done by[01:06:00] a hundred?
RYAN: so during, during the pandemic, my pitch wascheaper, faster, better. You can do more. And there's not a better time for youto do this than right now. Like you have to understand what the market's gonnareact because you used to be able to have a certain amount of inefficiency yourbudgets and in your teams.
RYAN: You are actually being asked to run in adeficit right now, and you have no margin for error. We can help you be right.If you're gonna launch a commercial, let's test it. If you're gonna do this,let's test it. Um, you know, your websites, let's make sure that Qualtrics ison every part of your websites, your employee base.
RYAN: Let's make sure that people are all right. Andthat was model that we kind built out.
LOGAN: I heard you say that one competitor I don'tknow if this is true but uh raised more money had a better product and andlower prices in the early days which seems like a recipe that's hard to uh beatUh I don't know if all through if you're just being overly humble about thatbut it was a competitive there were other players better funded
RYAN: yeah. I mean, we had [01:07:00] one competitor in 2005 and six. I rememberthat it raised 40, $40 million. Which was a lot at
LOGAN: Yeah You had zero
RYAN: Yeah, we had zero. Um, they were on the frontpage of every magazine and they had a better product and it was cheaper.
LOGAN: How did you out execute these Like was there Imean the academic thing probably helped
RYAN: I think we did out execute them, but I also thinkthat, um, they didn't get outta their own way. And this is the problem that,you know, I've seen over a 22 year period, it's like I knew that they wereraising money and they were just kind of blowing through it. And we, we, weliterally had to tune out the noise and play the long game.
RYAN: And sure enough, they self-sabotaged becausetheir cap table was so screwed up.
LOGAN: is Qualtrics a a better business because ofthose constraints that you you bootstrapped and therefore you you had to valuethe money
RYAN: A hundred percent. And I don't think becauseof the money. I mean, although the money is the, the, the [01:08:00] really, the true, forcing function there.
RYAN: But the symptom or what comes out of it is youactually have to be innovative as a company. If you, if you had, I mean, mynumber one question is when sit on boards or I'm in board meetings, like, okay,if we handed you another $20 million, what would change? And the answer'snormally not a whole lot because they've gotta be forced and outta necessity.
RYAN: You think of how you're going to go dosomething. You're not calling Heineken through a reference of a field studyproject. If you've got a bunch cash in the bank, you're just not. But whenthat's your only thing, you, you see signals that are different for opportunitywhen you're completely resource constrained.
LOGAN: you get an offer in 2012 to sell for 500million bucks and it's totally bootstrapped you guys were in a a fortuitousposition with that Why not What were the [01:09:00] inputs that you were thinking about at the time?
RYAN: I mean, everyone told us to. I mean,
LOGAN: who was everyone?
RYAN: everyone I talked to in the state of Utah,everyone that was here, I had one advisor who became the chairman of the board.
RYAN: He is the only one that said, don't sell. Andhe sat me and my brother my dad and my brother. My dad looked at me and said,Ryan, this your decision. And he jumps in and says, Ryan, as far as I can see,if you and Jared can get along, then I think you guys will let this run. Andthen, um,
LOGAN: and you're in your early thirties
RYAN: Yeah, early thirties. And, and that's a lot. Wehadn't given out equity. We owned the whole company. And you know, I got in thecar with my wife and we, I said, we gotta drive. So we, we like scheduled likea three day weekend. We didn't get more than a half hour. And she was like, Idon't know why you'd sell.
RYAN: Like, what are you gonna do?
LOGAN: I don't want you
RYAN: Yeah, I don't want you around. Like, like whatyou gonna do? And. And then, you know, went back, I went back that individualafter we turned money down and I said, [01:10:00]why did, why were you the only one? Why were you the only one? And he like,well, who else did you ask?
RYAN: And we went through whole thing and he islike, had any of them ever been in that situation before? He's like, no. He'slike, I, I was running this at Word perfect. I was the one that would have towrite a couple hundred million dollars check every year as distribution to thefounders. I've held that kind money.
RYAN: I've been in that spot. I knew what happenedwhen you sold and what happened to the company. And I knew what happened whenyou didn't. So the problem is, is you asked the wrong people. You asked a bunchof people that you thought were successful, but you didn't ask anyone who hadbeen in that spot before.
RYAN: And I see that so much. That advice is so, andpeople say, Hey, I've talked to all these people, this is what it is. Or likewhen the company's getting ready go public and. Like everyone's freaking out atIPO but they're, they're not talking to people who've actually ever been throughan IPO
RYAN: And so that was a great lesson that I learnedthat if you're [01:11:00] going to take advice from people couch itbased on, first of all, have you ever actually been in this situation before?
RYAN: Or one where the stakes this high? And in thatsituation, the stakes were high. And I think it was the money was one thing,but also the post, what happened to the company, if it's not done right, it'sthe end of the right. And I think there's a lot of people who were involvedwith Word perfect back in the day and that sell to Novell that we're not happywith how that ride ended.
LOGAN: Hmm And then at that point I mean I assumethere's no calculation you can really do that says oh if I go for it's thisversus that it's a very personal decision at that point that like Hey I'm gonnabe good in either of these scenarios And does it feel like the journey has morelegs to
RYAN: Yeah. Like we, we, I, I've taught a class fora couple years called Launch to Liquidity.
RYAN: I used to do it with Jonathan Leav atStanford, [01:12:00] and we'd be in the MBA students and he'dalways do these little polls like, what would you do if you were Ryan in thissituation? And like, they would all vote and then he'd call out the students,the MBA students and saying, Hey, why would you do this?
RYAN: Why would you do this? Why would you do this?And they were all off it, it's all personal there. Like it's, it's like, why doI want to or not want to? And you know, it came down to the car ride with mywife. And none of 'em had that on their rationale. And like, I think thatthat's where it's like, They're looking at this case study and m b a exerciseand that's just not waiting
LOGAN: a hundred million dollars path to and you'relike no it's actually is
RYAN: it's like, what are you talking about
LOGAN: your life is pretty much the same until youbuy an NBA team and then really good But up until that yeah.
No venture capital
LOGAN: Um and what was theadvice So there's you sat down with Mike Moritz as well who Legendary venturecapital Sequoia And what Was he [01:13:00]feeling you out at this point?
RYAN: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Like, um
LOGAN: because Sequoia wasn't an investor thenultimately they were
RYAN: we had no, we had no venture capital. Um, wewere in the process. My brother Jared was adamant, no venture capital. My dadadamant, no venture capital.
LOGAN: What was that by the way?
RYAN: A just, you my dad had kind of watched a lothappen in 98 and 99 and, you know, really had an adverse reaction people whowere building a hundred thousand dollars buildings and redoing the interior,but couldn't pay their bills.
LOGAN: Hmm
RYAN: And he didn't like that model. He didn't likethe model we saw with the company raising 40 million.
RYAN: He felt like a model where we were profitable,we were growing, we could dictate our own terms. We were self-reliant, was amodel that we had achieved. And every month I was paying my dad a lot of moneyand the other founders a lot of money. And that was a good, that was a goodmodel. So why would we take outside capital to go give that up?
RYAN: [01:14:00] And you know, you really had to believe thatthere was a bigger ambition there. Um, it really came down to, look, we've gotthis asset and this opportunity that could be something way bigger than anyonethinks that we ever thought. We need more people in the tent. We need smartestpeople the world, in the tent.
RYAN: This is why we want venture capital. We wantthem to be partners. Look at Duff. Being in the tent and how value add he is.If we're not gonna take the money and sell, we better take something and getsome people in the tent because they're now our competition and we gotta go.And so then it became, okay, we're bringing the smartest people we can find inthe tent. much is it gonna cost them to play with
LOGAN: And Maritz?
RYAN: I specifically remember at dinner, I'm sittingacross the table from the guy who gave Steve Jobs, his [01:15:00] first money gave, uh, Larry and Sergey firstmoney, like, and he's going, you know, he, he basically says, Ryan, like, thisis the perfect, perfect ness test for me.
RYAN: Why, why aren't there more successful companiesin Utah? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, there's a bunch ofcompanies that could have been, but we don't talk about 'em anymore. There maybe a little interesting dinner conversation, but they're not relevant. And soyou've got a choice in front of you.
RYAN: Do you want be a interesting dinnerconversation or do you actually wanna build something relevant? And I was like,I wanna build something relevant, you know? But, so we grabbed Sequoia and wegrabbed Excel. They two best venture firms at, at that time, and put 'emtogether. And they did, you know, Jared knew Schreyer and I knew Sweeney, andlike we did it and they were both young.
RYAN: And for the next 10 years we just [01:16:00] rocked. And it was like one of the coolestpartnerships that I've ever been a part of.
LOGAN: What changed between uh that moment at 500million and then ss a p at 8 billion And obviously there's been
RYAN: What was the sell difference?
LOGAN: Yeah Like what was the big input Was it justthe the order of magnitude the money and how many people would do well nowwithin the company and uh the journey felt more fulfilled and like what was thethat car ride you took with Ashley in 2012 versus the conversation the napkinat catalysts uh you know conference with Bill McDermott
RYAN: So first all, it was a, it was a, the nexttime someone approached us,
LOGAN: right
RYAN: That's what people don't understand,especially, especially what founders I mean, if you look at our trajectory, we,we were a hundred percent grower all the way up to 50% grower kicking off cash,not consolidated, owning a category.
Getting acquired
RYAN: And we had two people approach [01:17:00] us and 22 years to acquire us.
RYAN: So tell all thesefounders who are building something to go get acquired. Like, it's not gonnawork out the way you think it is. You don't build a company, you better build itto keep it, um, because your company no, looks nothing like ours.
RYAN: And we had no one circling. Right? And so, um,you know, I think a lot of change, num number one is, you know, When we turneddown the 500 I, I specifically remember, and, and I'll be straight up, this wasDave Goldberg back in the day who was an incredible human. He was sitting rightacross the street here.
LOGAN: Dave Goldberg c e o of SurveyMonkey rest inpeace passed away five years ago probably
RYAN: Yeah. 5, 5, 7 years ago. And he came and said,like, I, I remember saying, I like sat him down. came out here and he said,Hey, look, we're not gonna join forces. We're gonna go out alone. He said, [01:18:00] I like, I'm, I'm not ready to exit right now.
RYAN: And he, he said something I'll never forget.He said, you realize you're exiting you take venture you're getting on therails on the we're not, doing um, and then he said, how do you think you'regoing to be able to do this alone?
RYAN: And at the time I had like walked him throughour headquarters, he put on a Qualtrics hat and walked through and I was like,uh, I just got you to put on a Qualtrics hat and walk through our building. Ithink we're gonna do okay. And it was funny, but as I look back, he was ahundred percent right. The second you take on that venture capital, you aregetting on a path towards an exit, whether or not they're pressuring you ornot.
RYAN: If you have any decent awareness or care atall, um, you're gonna want to do right by them. I [01:19:00] wanted to return the whole fund of SequoianExcel for betting on I wanted, we wanted to be able to recruit talent to comeinto the building that would ultimately be able to say, Hey, I was right bygoing here.
RYAN: Um, we wanted to be able to take the platformglobal. We wanted to do all these things. Those were all the reasons to go takeventure capital, but. You've gotta line those reasons up with the way youmonetize all of that. Not only to pay for the growth, but also for theemployees and the people that are working on it.
RYAN: And so what we were able to do was say, Hey,we're getting ready to go public. We actually were going public. We were on theroad show and McDermott calls and says, Hey Ryan, like we been talking, he'slike, Hey, do you want to be a public CEO?
RYAN: I was like, what kind of question's that,like, we're on the tape, bro. Like it's going like tickers out in three days,but do you really want to be a public CEO? [01:20:00] Iwas like, actually, no. Like, he's like, why? And I was like, because you talkto any public CEO the, the high mark is, it's not that bad. I was like, so, sothe best I know. Or like, it's not that bad. That's not that lofty of a goal ofhappiness in that role.
RYAN: But I said I'm willing to go do it. Um, butnever as a kid was I like, oh, I need to go be a public CEO or I'm notfulfilled, just didn't care about it. And he said, well, I have a propositionfor you. How about you come public through us? I'll take you public and we'llput you at the tip of the s a p spear and all the marketing and everything, andwe will take you the world, the largest company in Europe.
RYAN: One of the reasons why you want to go is youwant have this, this party where everyone can see Qualtrics globally. We willtake you further and, and better than anyone else. And it's true. You [01:21:00] know, we were the only company on road. Weannounced it, $8 billion, largest private software acquisition and enterpriseof all time.
RYAN: Um, and the whole thing, he did everything hesaid he was gonna go do. Um, and then we got in there and he obviously leftafter a year and. You know, I think that his philosophy was really going afterthe customer where they had not been a customer focused organization. It wasmuch more back office, ERP,um, solutions.
RYAN: And this was more like, Hey, we're gonna gomake a massive play at some of the other customer focus providers, which, youknow, Salesforce, all these other and, um, we're building out this new category.And that's what he wanted to do. And so I think during the pandemic, everythingshifted back to ERP.
RYAN: And you know, we're, we're not a company.Qualtrics isn't a company that you just kind of let, just chill there. Uh,we're in the middle of building out a massive category, and so we decidedtogether, well, I didn't wanna leave [01:22:00]it like, let's go public. And so we took it public. And then right before the,the I P O, we sat around with Chris Beckstead, myself and Zig, who we had grownthe company a lot with. and I just said, Zig and Chris, like, you guys aregonna be. The most recruited people here. Everyone's gonna want to go be c e oand president. Why don't I slide over Zig you go take c e o, Chris, you'represident I'll just be the founder. And that's what happened. And
RYAN: um, a year and a half into it, um, you know,we decided that we needed to spin out, I mean, deconcentrate, SAP shares,because it's hard when someone owns 70% of you to even get any float.
RYAN: And, you know, the markets were crazy. Thepandemic affected it, but the business was awesome. And so we decided to, to todo a little bit of a, an auction. And, um, silver Lake, who was an investor andEgon [01:23:00] sitting on the board, ended up winning thebids and came full throttle writing the biggest check they've ever done.
RYAN: Um, we have a lot of respect for those guys.If you, if you think about Dell and. Even the work of Twitter and Airbnb andVMware and obviously U F C Endeavor fanatics. And like, they've got, they, theydon't, they, they don't make that many bets, but they go all in. And this wasthe biggest check they've ever written.
RYAN: And so we're about three or four weeks, um,from being in that. Whereas Zigs, the CEO I'm
RYAN: like we're rolling and it's pretty, it'spretty cool. So it's a cool 4 years and like three different transactions. Um,you can't make it up, especially because once we sold SAP, I mean 30% of ourworkforce left.
RYAN: They said the ride's over, you're never, we'renever gonna be a chance to be a part of it. Well, how do you know that theywere getting advice from the wrong people? And then it goes public and then ittrans like, and one of the [01:24:00] coolest parts aboutthis is Excel Partners just came in for a lot of money into this new companyand they said, I said, why are you doing this?
RYAN: And they said, Well, you're pre IPO again, weinvest in pre IPO companies, so here we are.
LOGAN: gonna be a what is that a fourth? that’s good.
LOGAN: I heard you say that you made every mistakethat you could as the CEO and I'm sure that's a bit of an exaggeration uh butthe
LOGAN: product market fit element of like what youguys established is there anything that's That you can take away that thatanyone should internalize about the Qualtrics product market fit in this and ityou talked about doing things that don't scale and like bouncing between thethe Northwestern person to the to the Heineken person and all that But as itrelates to the product and the the insight you all had and how you actuallydeveloped and built around it is there anything that you would point to that wewe didn't talk about in [01:25:00] that I
RYAN: think in 2017, we basically completely. Movethe market because we said we're going in a different direction. And we did itfrom a position of strength and we created our own category, the experience,management category. And um, that was a hard decision.
LOGAN: What would thecategory historically have been?
RYAN: Ee, we had like asurvey or an insight platform.
RYAN: But if you actually got into the data, you hadhundreds and thousands people logging in to do something. Because people woulddo it for their own employees They would do it for their customers would, andso people would be oh, Qualtrics, you're the research platform. Oh, Qualtrics,you're the employee platform.
RYAN: Be like, no, we're more than You're thecustomer platform. We're more than that. But we basically laid out a roadmapover the next six years coming from that base that this is what we were gonnago build and this is how we were gonna talk about it. And this is a story inthe category. And it was a bet the company move, absolutely bet the company [01:26:00] move, creating a new category of experiencemanagement because it wasn't one that our customers asked for.
RYAN: They, they were not asking for it and itwasn't product market fit. We basically believed in and told the world whyexperience is the commonality. But we didn't do it blindly. We had a differentview of what 10,000 brands at the time were doing on our platform. We could seethe problems they were solving and you know, it was validated.
RYAN: For example, Royal Caribbean Cruise Line callsme in the middle of the pandemic. They've got no ships going out. They've gotone ship stranded with all of their employees on it because of Covid and theycalled to renew their license and actually upgrade.
LOGAN: Hmm
RYAN: So why, like, let's talk for a second. And bythe way, I mean this is a dear to dear to my heart customer [01:27:00] because it's like the stories that I'vealready told, but.
RYAN: They said, look, all of our other data that'scoming in, it's pretty useless right now. We need to know how our employees aredoing. We need to know what is it that would make our customers feel safe to gocruise again and where they would want to go. Um, pretty much who're the onlyones in world that can give us that new flow of data.
RYAN: And we were like, okay, great. They got it.And by the way, they're gonna put all on one single platform you know, run theanalysis of where to go how to go, and customers feeling good, but then theyhave this other serving work-life balance
LOGAN: Uh it seems that you uh you don't necessarilybelieve in that you believe it There's elements of integration of your work andyour life Your uh your wife's dance studio is is downstairs [01:28:00] Yeah Right below us as you walked in which isvery confusing when I when I came in the wrong door Uh but your kids are arounduh and I think they were Qualtrics people would bring their kids to work and allall of that I I see your kids at basketball games stuff Um how do you thinkabout like not work life balance but the integration of your work in in life Isthat is that kind of rooted in the fact that it was at the founding it was youand your dad well?
RYAN: I just, I don't like, I mean, no one's evertold me no. So why wouldn't we do it? Right. I think, I think we, I think we'reall trying our hardest and like I care about that portion of my life. I think alot of people do. And I think you can do it all. I just truly believe that.And, um, you know, tech's little harder. Like there wasn't as much of a rolefor um, like Ash and the kids inside Qualtrics, there wasn't, and in most techcompanies there's not. There's just not, it's [01:29:00] not a family really event and you know, so howdo you make the culture as family friendly as possible? Because we alwaysbelieved that if the family was on board, then that that's really the team.
RYAN: And if you actually look at how it'stranslated, the NBA is much more, it's actually the first thing that Ash and Ihave really been able to go do together. And that's what's really cool, um, waymore than tech. And so I think, I think the idea of, of tech was, hey, we, wecare. And a lot of companies, it's not just a Qualtrics thing.
RYAN: We, we want people to, to feel like they'reeither part of the family or their family's a part of the company as well. Andthat, that was it. mean, right across the streets, the 40,000 square footdaycare center, right. Where, for, Qualtrics employees only. But we [01:30:00] did that during the pandemic, or right beforethe pandemic for working mothers.
RYAN: Really, we wanted to be able to recruit and tobe able to have more, you know, mothers with children be able to go and work,um, in our offices and actually be able to feel like they were, they were takencare of. Um, and, and it's a combination now between whoever the primary careresponsible person is or whoever they're, they're doing.
RYAN: So it's not just, um, females who there, it's,it's males. It's like, it's however the family setup is, it's at the daycare.But what we've been able to do is set up this environment where, People cancheck in with their family and they're good. And what's kind of amazing is mykids don't want me around all the time, like, but they want to check in withAnd I think that's [01:31:00] a really coolthing. by the way, it's like proximity to work's a big Um, and it's somethingthat, that we've tried to carry over to the NBA as well. Um, whether it's withour players or people on the road, or people who moved to Utah, um, just reallytrying to say, Hey, look, this a little different. This is, this hopefully issomething different.
LOGAN: I wanna read some things that you said uh andI wanna get you just to expound on them uh a little bit 'cause I I I took downas particularly interesting thoughts So uh original thought is incrediblydifficult and incredibly painful What'd you mean by by that?
RYAN: Yeah, like when you, when you think of stuffthat you came up with you invented, it's hard. And it's almost like every goodthing you do, there's like, there's 20 other people that rip it off and likewhenever we see that and it's stupid stuff. Like I remember we came up withthis amazing hoodie at Qualtrics and it was designed and [01:32:00] sourced overseas.
RYAN: And like I wanted it because the high neckcame up and it was like this killer hoodie and it said Qualtrics on it andeveryone who had one. And then I started seeing like 45 different brands withsomething just like it. So what do you say? And it, and we came up with likeoriginal thoughts, hard
LOGAN: Mm-hmm
RYAN: like, and that's, that's it. And it's painful.It's painful to come up with something. Um, but you know, as a culture, youwant to be able to have a culture where original thought is always existent. Ialways bet on that company with original thought. We had to have originalthought in our company because we were resource constrained.
RYAN: You had to able to think through it. So ifsomeone wants to come and go through a real tour of Qualtrics or even thisplace or like. We always try to come up with stuff and that's what makes itfun.
LOGAN: I I I think I know where this is coming frombut you said it's sad to see people job hop uh every year and a half and thatuh nothing great [01:33:00] happens over a short period of time Is thatjust 22 years of just chopping wood?
RYAN: I've been able to see the, the beginning tothe end and watching people's careers and watching those who actually stayedthrough the hard parts and actually what, what, what I found is very few peopleable to run away from the problem they actually had to solve.
RYAN: My brother Jared used to always tell me, like,when came to a blind spot or coaching someone or something, it was like, Hey,they've heard it before. And especially when you're young in your career, Ithink when you're post 40, it's really hard to change. when you're young inyour career and you've got someone or an organization that's willing to bet onyou and is on a high trajectory, then, um, you know, you should ride thattrain.
RYAN: That being said,like a lot of people [01:34:00] have thought that,especially in tech, that it's easy and you can just go jump on any company andyou're gonna catch that next wave. Um, and the problem is, is like, from whatI've seen in tech is like, I always say that if it, if it looks like a lotteryticket, it's probably not.
RYAN: Because if you actually go to the early daysof most of these companies, whether it's us, Atlassian, slack, they're not,they're not what you would say looks like that. It's almost like you need toget in there. And I know that there's reasons why there's false starts andthings happen, but I think this culture of not being able to sit throughsomething and actually learn the hard lessons is, is one that.
RYAN: I, I just, for my own kids, I, I hope thatthey don't get that. Like I had to sit through Seoul, Korea, I'm watching inthe N C A A and the transfer portal. Anything, something gets hard. It's likeI'm out. Like, wait, that's not how you're gonna be able to grow
RYAN: and so just 'cause someone offers you moremoney or [01:35:00] a different job, like, I'll never forget mybrother when he was at Google Deep Nihar who was, you know, if you remember himfrom LinkedIn and everything, him and said, Jared, I want you to go work withKai Fu Lee, and I want you to go run Google, And he said, wait a minute, I'mgonna go over and live in China and I'm gonna live in hotel in Beijing, andyou're not gonna pay me as an expat. You're not gonna gimme more money. Where Icould actually go into another organization here at Google, I could get a promotionand. It's guaranteed. Why would I go take that job?
RYAN: And he came to Jared and said, because one dayyou'll pay me $20 million for the opportunity Jared ends up taking the Googlejob. ends up doing that and then coming back and coming with And I'll neverforget the meaning I had sitting down at [01:36:00] lunch in Palo Alto with Deep, they're telling the story and then Jaredchimes in and says, I would've paid you 60 And how you get that? If you'rejumping every or whatever, first of all, you're not even gonna be around forsomeone like deep to bet on you. And the other part of that is that mostopportunities, especially young in your career, someone has to take a chance onyou. Like someone took a chance on me, my dad took a chance on me.
RYAN: The person in, you know, Hewlett Packard took a chance on me. My brotherand Sequoia in Excel took a chance on and it only came over time. Um, it wasn'tthat I was going to create something or I was gonna come in at a differentlevel. It was that someone would pull me up to that level and the next leveland the next level, and that's what matters.
RYAN: So it's a deep answer too.
LOGAN: [01:37:00] No it's good mean I I it's an it's animportant I think one of the things that I people ask all the time is like Ithink there's a lot of people dissatisfied in their job in some way shape orform right And they're trying to figure out particularly when you're 22 to 2527 28 like you know that what you're doing isn't your life's work right Uh butyou're not exactly sure what it is And people tell you follow your passion ordon't follow your passion You need to follow the the path of progress and thebusiness that you're on and stay committed to something And so I think havingsome of these lived experiences for people is just like it it's a it's animpactful thing And I struggle with the advice to give to people in thatsetting because I can tell my story and that's maybe interesting but like allthose doors closed after I walked through them right And you can't replicatewhat I did What I did was Worked hard and like tried to [01:38:00] glom on to people that would teach me That'snot a strategy.
RYAN: Well, there is, there is a strategy here thatI think from something you said, I, I still don't feel like I'm doing my life'swork. So like this concept that you're gonna come outta school and like gofollow your passion. Like that's really bad advice.
RYAN: 'cause it's work. Like early days of Qualtricssucked. It was work. It wasn't my passion. Um, the amount of people I know inlife that actually get to follow their true passion, like, and by the way, evenin the NBA, I mean, I was talking to an agent couple months ago who had 20players, and out of 20 players, half of them weren't happy.
RYAN: Right? So, so if you look at, you just get tonew levels and then you look around and you compare yourself
RYAN: So this idea of like, go follow your passion. [01:39:00] I would never use the word passion. I wouldsay follow something that is intriguing. And then by the way, you're gonna getin there and every job you do, including in the MBA there's gonna be half thethings that you don't like about it.
RYAN: And when you're more senior in your career,you get to choose to offload some of those things to other people. that's it.That's how this is gonna go. The higher up you get. There's gonna be morethings you don't like, but you also have the ability to organize it because youare the one that can call the shots about who gets to do what. But there's noperfect thing.
LOGAN: One of the other things I heard you say is uhis that your strategy will ultimately be wrong plan for things to take a littlebit longer than you expect which I think ties into that you can't be tooprescriptive It's a somewhat at odds with the press release concept in thefuture but like [01:40:00] you think just being nimble in your path knowwhere you're going but nimble in your journey to get there Is that the righttakeaway?
RYAN: Yeah. The way I look at, it's like, so you'vegot that press release, you know where you're going and you think it's gonna golike this, but actually what's gonna happen is you're gonna take off and you'regonna go you're gonna hit this like roadblock. You're gonna hit the ceiling.
RYAN: What happens is you have to slide over andthen find the new ceiling and then you're gonna hit that and then you're gonnaslide over and there's a lot of pain. Throughout those three bumps, but thenyou look back and you got to the end of the press release. It looks like astraight line, but it was actually really like that.
RYAN: And that's, that's just how it goes. Like, Idon't remember one product, one website, one thing we've done where we launchedit, and it was exactly how we thought it would, even though we knew where wewanted it to be. Where we wanted it to be was a chance to always come in andsay, okay, are we on track? Or do we need to change the way we're doing it?Most of the time we need to change the way we’re doing it.
LOGAN: You gave acommencement to H B I B Y U that was centered [01:41:00] around the concept of being all in that we canlink in the show notes and people to watch um what is what does being all in toyou now How do you think about that and what advice do you give to people aboutbeing all in?
RYAN: I, I mean the, the concept, I mean, in thatcommencement speech was like, it was back to a little bit of the, the changingjobs every year, right? Like, Nothing good that I have has come from not justburning that boat. I mean, we talked about story earlier today whether I did itor it was burned for me, when you don't have a backup plan, then you tend tooperate and whatever you're working on or the situation actually tends to to goa lot better.
RYAN: When we got rid of the R S N, that was scary,but once it happened, it wasn't a week before we'd figured out like [01:42:00] how a bunch of different revenue andopportunity to go after that was way better. Now, you couldn't gimme that dealall over again if you tried like, but it wasn't until we burned it, right, thisis the new let's go.
RYAN: And so I think there's that moment on how toget there, and I think. Um, you'll operate a lot better if you're sitting thereworking at Qualtrics and you don't know whether you're gonna be here long termor you're not thinking about that, or you're like, ah, I don't know. You're notgonna perform well if you decide you are.
RYAN: If you go into college and you say, well, nomatter what I'm graduating, I don't care. That's the rules. This is what'sgonna happen. I am going to graduate. There is no problem. Most people that'skind of in their cards, they're saying, Hey, I'm gonna go commit for four yearsand we're gonna go graduate. Are you gonna go all in on the other things you'redoing?
RYAN: You've already proven you can commit to fouryears to something. Like, can you do that? Can you commit to your job? Can youcommit to [01:43:00] this? Can you commit that? And it's just thisconcept that you just operate better when you're a hundred percent committed.And the problem is today's world, it seems like hedging is just the priority. Hedge, hedge, hedge.
LOGAN: Last one I'm not even really sure what thismeans but uh someone told me to ask you about riding a horse into your office.
RYAN: That's a funny story. Um, I don't know why,but we hit a sales goal once and we would always do random things.
LOGAN: What year is is this?
RYAN: this? is like 2014. And we, we just wanted tocelebrate somehow. And I don’t know where the idea came from, but I didn't havea horse. But my brother knew a guy who was outta town and he knew his horsecaretaker and he has this really, really expensive horse that he liked. And Iwas like, wouldn't it be cool to just take his horse and like [01:44:00] bring it into our office?
RYAN: And so his caretaker came down with the horse,we backed it up to the door, we walked it in and like we rode the horse throughthe office and we actually had a couple meetings. And instead of sitting on thechair, you sat on the horse.
LOGAN: And how manyemployees are you then?
RYAN: Not that many. But I think the picture wasmore for the animal, the gentleman that we knew.
RYAN: Yeah. To tell him like, like the, the pictureof us in a meeting with someone on his horse was pretty funny. And still funnytoday.
RYAN: Like, like, um, but it was, it was great. wasa beautiful horse.
LOGAN: Ryan thanks for doing this.
RYAN: No, thanks. Uh, that was some, uh, incredibledetail.